My
Two Cents on
the PCI Quartz Extreme Controversy
Example and Disussion of How
and Why PCI Quartz
Extreme Often Helps ... plus Scolding
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Why this Whole Thing Really Irks Me
This "controversy" had been getting me hackles up for some time until I
finally I posted an email-disguised
-rant
to the
XLR8YourMac
site (GREAT SITE)
from which I
will steal and expand the content below for your amusement. I
will also be providing theory "and handwaiving" as to why observed
results seem to differ
from the predicted ones.
Well,
I didn't have any early predictions, I was just tuning.
Nothing
about this is meant to
disparage XLR8YourMac.
The site is asking for feeback to answer the question and a
site
like that is where the action is happening.
Getting
right to the
point.
I
keep reading various
postings and
discussions describing how some person used the PCI QE mod and reports
it helps, but some other person(s) NOT USING
THE SAME SYSTEMS FOR THE SAME USES IN THE SAME WAY responds with: Your
wrong, It just can't help! and
they refuse to believe that the first person is NOT an idiot.
This is amazingly rude and
insulting. The people insitsing it can't work have arguments
consisting of some valid
technical points, plud largely hinging on the relatively
meaningless fact
that Apple didn't include
it on for reasons.
Yep, people installing OS X on unspported hardware and roaming mod
sites are (as least partly) arguing the PCI Quartz Extreme is bad
because Apple didn't support... but Apple had good reasons.
Lets take a look at well it works, what problems it causes, and some reasons.
Lets
actually USE reason and BE Reasonable, but moody...that's
it...reasonable and moody... and start with...
Apple also didn't support
ANY of the first
generation PC machine with OS X for reasons,
but some
people still find them
usable running OS X nonethteless, and I believe them.
Apple
also doesn't
provide GUI access to a variety of features that they do provice CLI
controls for...for reasons,
didn't give the OS X client a GUI option for formating case sensitive
drives ... for
reasons, and
provides a VERY limited Spot Light interface...for reasons,
and...for
reasons...has elected to
prevent
spot light from finding hidden files basically ever.
Apple is VERY sensitive
to the needs of
less technical users and has a tendency to remove or hide options that
require more technical skill to evaluate and use, but THAT IS EXACTLY
WHAT A SITE LIKE XLR8YourMac
is all about. It would be a limited
really site if "Apple Didn't Ship It That Way" was really a major worry.
Technical
theories
are nice but real world
use and
specific testing has to be the final derminat. Those telling
others not to beleive there own eyes should know that.
I
always say in
end to just test the subject of interest and answer the
question.
If someone doesn't
believe the answer they really need a different occupation or hobby.
I
then offered my
experience with PCI QE, the one detailed on this site.
-
PCI QE vs no QE is a wash
on the Power Center costing about as
much as it provides.
-
PCI QE is a
BIG
improvement on
the PM8500 and when a OS update turns if off I KNOW IT IMMEDIATELY.
-
XBench shows
slightly
decreased
framerates with QE On, but in real use the GUI feels MUCH better with
QE on.
This shows exactly what you would expect: Allowing graphics to have
100% of the processor while benching gives nice frame rates, but when
some user would like a piece of that CPU he overloading
provided
by QE can maintain the GUI speed speed and continue to
provide
fluid feels long past the points where the non QE GUI gets REAL choppy.
-
In looking
at the impact I
have
tested everything from playing MPEG2 video and the audio stuttering
ussue, to ripping DVD's to mp4, and using the PM8500's Video on Demand
service, and I have found NO noticeable impact from QE.
Videos that skip skip it so the same amount in both, DVD's rip in the
same time in both WITH ME USING THE SYSTEM, iTunes plays just
fine in both, (through the WAY overloaded Sonnet Trio and
into an
iMic), and Video on Demand works well in both.
-
A much
larger impact is
seen by
the bottleneck that the Sonnet Trio 133 creates.
If not
configured JUST right the system REALLY is sensitive to bandwidth
shortages, such as the mouse freezing when the optical drive
spins up. This problems are never apparent from any amount of
GUI
loading and NOT IMPROVED AT ALL by turning QE off. Some
careful
device arranging eliminated these problems resulting in no mouse
freezes or audio stutter for in the end.
-
The Beige G3
is similar
but
with slightly less "feel" benefit compared to the PM8500.
This was a surprise as I thought the much baser PCI 2.1 slot combined
with the faster bus/memory would let the Beige tear the PM8500 up in
graphics. This suggest that a fast CPU with a fast BIG cache
tend
to win. The G4 800 card outruna the Beige in most things (the
Beige also has too little RAM at 384) causing the Beige to feel a
little sluggish.
-
XBench's QE
performance is
lower on the Beige than the PM8500 with QE Off but measure slightly
faster than the PM8500 with QE On (about the same).
The
Beige's user interface benchmark is significantly better than the
PM800, but in real world use this bogs down quickly whereas the PM8500
doesn't seem to slow easily. ATA drive performance in the
Beige
is great however benching twice as fast as the PM8500 (same hardware)
and twice as fast as my PB 12 G4 (laptops really do have
tradeoffs). The best thing I ever did for that Beige was
getting
an ATA PCI card.
I also
give the obvious
corollary example pointing out
the the PM8500 does better using the "technically much more
constricted" SCSI drive as the boot drive than using an ATA drive.
A
similar
"measured" vs "real world
use" effect can be seen with the drives. The ATA 100 and 133
drives connected to the PCI card bench over twice as fast an the large
SCSI drive (An ATLAS 10K 68 pin connected the the internal SCSI 2
port.) However the system runs MUCH better is
booted from
that SCSI drive. This is almost certainly related to virtual
memory and SCSI more advanced abilities (bi-directional, less CPU
load). If I refused to believe my own observations the
NUMBERS
would require me to boot from an ATA drive.
I
proceed to hint at a
theory provided by me, a toal
non-computer professional an amateur, a
pretender, a fact that proves
that old adage (or maybe I
just made it up, but it sounds old): It is better to know how
to
think than to
think you know... (Great, no doubt sometime within the next
year I will hear an AA member ascribe that quote to Bill Wilson.
He already got credit for 'We have nothing to fear but fear
itself.')
I
think part of the explainion as to
why QE is NOT
having the negative impact predicted (at least in some cases) is pretty
straightforward...but I will let the "experts" ignore a few technical
details if they wish, although perhaps asking the DETAILS OF WHAT APPLE
DID AND DID NOT TEST along with asking WHY THE BEIGE HAS 2x THE DRIVE
SPEED OF THE PM8500 USING THE SAME SYSTEM INSTALL,
ATA PCI
CARD, AND ATA DRIVE should suggest some reasons. I am sure
there
are a number of factors and possibly my theories are wrong,
but
clearly the details of each particular system and how it is used have
large sway as to the value of such a thing as PCI QE. I go
with
the results
whether I saw them coming are not.
Give
Some
Benchmarks to Prove I Did Them
PM8500
G4 800 1M/256 caches, 480 MB of
RAM, running 10.3.1/2 from and internal 36 G SCSI drive (68
pin
on the 50 pin SCSI 2 bus). Video card was a flashed
PowerColor
Radeon 7000 Dual head 32 M card. Both the Powercenter and the
Beige have "official" Mac Edition Radeon 7000s so I have traded around
and found differences.
Quartz
Extreme ON
| CPU
Test |
91.78 |
| Thread Test |
64.44 |
| Memory Test |
17.15 |
| Quartz Graphics Test |
37.02 |
| OpenGL Graphics Test |
90.41 |
| User Interface Test |
53.81 |
Quartz
Extreme
OFF
| CPU
Test |
89.36 |
| Thread Test |
64.09 |
| Memory Test |
17.20 |
| Quartz Graphics Test |
47.14 |
| OpenGL Graphics Test |
86.33 |
| User Interface Test |
66.53 |
Rev
A Beige, G4 400 1M, 385 RAM,
booting from ATA 100 drive.
Quartz
Extreme ON
| CPU
Test |
39.37 |
| Thread Test |
26.97 |
| Memory Test |
23.90 |
| Quartz Graphics Test |
40.07 |
| OpenGL Graphics Test |
53.47 |
| User Interface Test |
51.29 |
Quartz
Extreme OFF
| CPU
Test |
38.70 |
| Thread Test |
30.88 |
| Memory Test |
21.77 |
| Quartz Graphics Test |
35.79 |
| Open GL Graphics Test |
53.28 |
| User Interface Test |
53.96 |
Then
A Few
Obvious
Thoughts
Ignoring
the fact that telling people
actually using hardware that they are dreaming and fools is rude and
condescending and the overall approach is bad science and bad practice
lets look at this analytically.
Having read nothing from Apple or anything much about this particular
technical issue but instead reallying on the observations and
experiences or myselft and others let me toss out some ideas.
The obvious first thing is to ask is: What able DID do to evaluate and
decide not to enable PCI to use QE, and why. Although Apple
did
NOT enable QE extreme on PCI macs by default, they certainly didn't
discourage it.
Turning on QE on my PM8500 was a heck of alot easier than 1) installing
OS X on it, 2) getting CGI
s to work, or 3) setting up webDAV (not too hard).
The
point is, enabling QE is easy.
When you further ask yourself what hardware Apple must have been looing
to decide if QE was a good idea on PCI Macs you do not suspect they
tested is on1st generation PCI PowerMacs, systems which were never
supported by ANY
shipping OS
X. Even the Public beta only installed as "unsupported".
Instead they probalby consdiders machines that where much
newer
and supported buy OS X, like the B&W and low end (not sawtooth)
G3
and G4 systems.
So now we ask: How did thos systems differs form the original PCI Macs,
and the answer is: They differ in a lot of ways the overal balance of
which is hard to predict. A few of these differences are:
Faster buses, even faster memory, more and
different
interfaces (like USB, FireWire)g with a trend away form older
interfaces like (SCSI and serial), ATA buses, and PCI slots conforming
to an upgraded spec.
When we look at my experience, especially when combined the experience
of others, we generally DO
NOT see the PCI
QE
enabled video card sucking up all the bandwidth and causing problems in
these original systems. In fact we don't see any PCI card
dominating the data flow from the motherboard, drives, are other cards.
What we do see is bandwidth problems between interfaces arrising of the
same card so that USB devices attached to one card might have problems,
or a card with both USB and FireWire might get choppy USB mouse when
FireWire drive is attached, etc.
If you look at the results from users who have upgraded
the Radeon
70000 32 M on there first generation PCI systems to the newer much
faster Radeon 9200 Cards with 128 M of VRAM yu find that generally they
are seeing NO performance gains at all. This is surprising
since
QE benefits so much on newer systems from having more memory on the
Video card.
All this suggesst that these old systems are aready feeding as much
data as they possible can to the current cards and that is not enough
data to overwhelm the motheroad and tends to point to the the actual
bottle neck (or an important one) in a 1st general PCI PowerMac being
the connection between the motherboard and the PCI cards.
Does
this track...of course
it does.
The first generation of PCI Macs had 2.0 compliant PCI slots.
Subsequent generations had newer 2.1 slots. That
difference
seems small, but anything but. The 2.1 spsec was a major improvement
over 2.0 and 2.1 with buses that can manage and move a lot more data
than a 2.0 bus can.
Think of the different ATA drive benchmarks given by the Beige and the
PM8500. Using identical hardware the PM8500 can access the
drive
at a max of about 20 MBytes/sec whereas the Beige gets 40 to 50 MBytes
per second. The Beige really got a MAJOR performance boost
from
an ATA card but only moderate boost from QE. The PM8500
actually
runs worse booting from an ATA drive (working through a PCI
slot)
doing bettter from a good SCSI drive even though that drive only
benches at arond 9 MBytes per second (near saturation for a SCSI 2
bus). The PM8500 gets a much more signifance performance
gains
from using QE than from and ATA drive.
The Power Center that has a much slower memory system that the PM8500
and the Beige has faster memory and faster PCI slots but bopth seem to
benefit less from QE than the PM8500 does suggesting (very softly) the
the PowerSurge system may be a special group as pertains to QE.
The
Even More
Obvious Bottom Line
Apple
looked at newer PCI system that
had faster PCI slots and saw the
potential for QE to pull too much bandwidth starving out other devices.
It is not clear if this was a constant problem, or just one
ont
he margins, but not one for Mom to contend with.
They
probably never looked at, didn't care about, and even if they
did
would never comment a system as old as the PM8500.
However a first generation PCI Macs hobbled PCI interface is so slow is
may actually insulate the rest of the system from any particlar PCI
card's bandwidth appetites. That Radeon 7000 just cannot suck
enough datat through the straw of a 2.0 connector to cause major
problems. but might really imact a system pulling through a PCI 2.1
hose. This isolating effect allows these olders system to
take
advantage of QE extreme (it seems enough data is flowing to
keep
the GUI pretty fluid) while avoid the bandwidth problems. Of
course the trade-off is lots of bandwidth problems withing the PCI
cards (FW/USB/ATA) and/or between the motherboard and and cards, some
dating to when these systems were new (audio stuttering from
any
sound source passing through a PCI slot).
I found it perplexing HOW brittle those PCI slots were often having
problems at data rates well below what the motherboad could easily
provide. A glaring example is DVD video (or any video).
The PM8500 had no problem playing DVD video if that video was
copied to a SCSI drive, but just could not handle that same video when
read
from any device connected through an PCI slot includiing
FireWire, USB, and ATA. We are not talking much buch data
here.
My 1st generation PB G4 had NO trouble playind a DVD from a
drive
attached via its USB 1.1 ports (about 1 MBytes/second max).
The
PM8500's serial ports can hit around 200KBytes/second, its external
SCSI around 5 MBytes/second, and the internal drive around 10
M/s.
The ATA drives connected via a PCI CARD can in fact hit simple
read/write speeds of 20 MBytes/second, much more than a DVD needs,
suggesting a large component or the problem might relate to trouble
managing the bandwidth in and among those PCI slots (one of the
documented changes form 2.0 to 2.1). This limitation is highlightyed by
many of these systems odd and unique problems including: Audio sources
that stutter when sourced from a drive connected via PCI
but adressed in OS 9 by using an extension
that
actually slowed the drive down, intractable problems using
2.0
devices in but USB 1.1 works perfectly with problems worsing as the
possible data flow to/from the device increases. Connectin a
USB
2.0 drive to these machines just freezes them until you unhook the
device. Yet another eample is the poor function from the the
FireWire connected iSight as it overloaded its bus eventaully failing
altogether, but leaving the system otherwise functional.
Restoring temporary iSight function always required a reboot.
Clearly some cards worl better than others and in general the problems
are more like or more pronounced for data flowing into, rather than out
of the system. Audio and video coming in stutters, the iSight
fails when feeding in raw videa as well, but Video on Demand
(using the EXACT SAME FILES) works fine, you can burn to ATA CD drive
at 24x, you can output to a printer, and your dump QE Open GL command
and textures to the video card as adequate speeds.
And
Some Subtle
Take
Home Messages
It
is not enough to know the
generalties about some theory or
evauation. If you are going to swear buy it you had better
make
sure the model for hardware and how it is used matches what you are
likely to do. In other words its all modeling
and you
need to make sure the model relfects your situation.
Everybody's needs patterns of us and peeves are different making pros
and cons somewhat varialbe, so believe yourself.
Theory and reality often don't match. That is the grouding
principal of science: If your theory starts to diverge form your
observations you don't try to force your observations to match your
theories, and you don't ingore the observations. You modify
you
theory. Over time this process hones your model guding and
closer
and to the reality.
When in doubt and when really want to know... ask the questoin.
Who cares if you predicted wrong, the fun parts is explaining
why...otherwise nobody learns a thing.
Lastly.
Never insult cocky
people...they will come back at you since they are...well...cocky...
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Created
05/23/05